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Thread: Can we have a subsection on plants?

  1. #31
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    Default Re: Can we have a subsection on plants?

    The reality is that there just isnt enough interest in vivaria/plants in this entire frozen tundra of a country. People like things that are easy to aquire, and easy to take care of. Both do not apply to plants/vivs. Im all for adding a plant section, but its hard enough getting people interested in the enclosure side of things that is here already. Its the "collector" and "lets make money" mentality that keeps things simple and easy in the reptile hobby. When people start to take pride in displaying their animals in nice enclosures, then interest in live plants will follow.

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Can we have a subsection on plants?

    Quote Originally Posted by lordoftheswarms View Post
    That's the point Walker, but with a dedicated forum, it would be more visible, and more organized and more capable of generating the increase in interest that I am striving for. It's not just personal appreciation that is needed, but understanding, and a local hobby that values diversity as well, or the standard animals will be all you will ever see at the shows, and in this hobby.

    I'm not interested in vending at ERAS shows, or contributing to the forums if the society doesn't consider additional ways to promote diversity. This last show was a huge let down regarding interest in diversity, with no proposed ways of improving it. I'm sick of the local hobby being about just the animals.
    PJs has some terrestrial plants in their enclosures because I pestered them enough. It looks marginally less tacky now.
    When I built the best vivaria I could for the store, I witnessed the reactions. It was overwhelmingly positive.

    There is growing appreciation for the diversity, but so far, Bubba at least, wants me to suck it up and let it be. That's not going to fly.
    I'm taking this to the January meeting.
    Reading through this again, I just noticed this point and I am disappointed in what you are stating here. You of all people know how I tried to promote diversity, getting other non-mainstream vendors into the fold. I even tried to liaison a dart frog breeder to coincide with your vivs to encourage this ! I spent countless hours researching, phoning, and emailing others to try to accommodate diversity within our shows, and thus our society. In the end, I booked 50 groups from 5 provinces and had an eclectic variation of offerings. My count was well over 200 different species (bugs not even included in this) to look at, learn from or purchase - and I cannot force others to come and vend regardless of what one or some want to see. I would like to see more diversity but I cannot force anyone to do anything, only encourage.

    You state This last show was a huge let down regarding interest in diversity, with no proposed ways of improving it". I discuss the shows openly at the meetings, sometimes to fault as I want others to be involved, and to get their chance to help out. When it came down to nominations to take the position of VP (and thus the show planning and execution), all I saw was navel gazing from everyone, including you.

    I have yet to hear from you, or anyone on other viable methods to encourage the diversity at the shows that the membership wishes to see. I would think and hope that others think that I am the last person to fail anything upfront. That is not who I am, nor will I ever. I prefer open dialogue even if it ruffles some feathers as it encourages everyone to see different opinions, as opposed to totalitarian views of the vocal minority.

    I personally am open to a sub forum on this, but your methods of garnering support are not going to endear people, especially with a "take my ball home" mentality. You have a lot to offer to this, and our hobby but a bullish attitude is obtuse. If something doesn't go the way you want, feel free to research, lobby, and put in the extra effort to make people see your side. The society, save a few is all for new and exciting things, but it must be done in an intelligent, rational way. I think our society has grown tremendously in the past few years from a lot of hard work of a volunteer executive both past and present. Look at our meeting attendance this year, vs past years. Our lowest meeting attendance was 42, and our highest was over 80. I have come to meetings before where there was 14 people. This doesn't happen overnight, and shows a building interest in out hobby...A great platform for you to introduce your ideas and encourage interest.

    We have guest speakers at our meetings, have you ever considered crossing someone from the orchid society into one of these, and coinciding it with a live viv presentation ? Inviting a member to one of our meetings, to introduce this aspect ? Asking if they can attend one of our shows to display ?

    There are many, many ideas that our executive and membership would support, but you can't just open the doors and expect a floodgate of people streaming in to buy/appreciate/take interest in something. A newer, revolutionary idea needs a lot of thankless hard work, and most of the time you'll never see the end you wish to have by yourself alone. The people that you bring forward are the ones that help carry it forward.

    "Always seek out the seed of triumph in every adversity"
    Og Mandino



  3. #33
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    Default Re: Can we have a subsection on plants?

    After reading this thread, there are a few things that come to mind from my own point of view. First is that the idea of plants has always been a daunting one. I considered getting more into plants when I upgraded my hermit tank. I was not born with a green thumb, and was hesitant to get into the idea. I can appreciate, and very much respect those who can do vivariums.

    I can see how further discussions about plants and vivariums would allow people access to information that would allow them to get more into it. As it is, anytime I've been curious about vivariums I've gone over to the Dendro board.

    While I can see how talking more here would encourage further discussion, I also think it would take a bit of time to get off the ground. If there was a sub-category created for plants, it would be a ghost town for a bit. After all, nobody would be used to using it, so there might be the potential for it to go stagnant. Or the opposite: It could be a new board, and people would be more open to discussing or asking questions.

    My worry would be more the amount of questions asked of those experienced. There could be quite a few: "How do I...." boards, and possibly not as many people familiar enough to answer them skillfully. There has to be a balance of information and questions, otherwise it will sway either one way or another.

    I can see how it would help, but I could also see a potential problem with it. After all, you are very familiar with plants, yet many of us are not. That would mean many people would approach you about the subject, possibly to the point of being annoying.

    Of all the topics I can think of in relation to plants, my biggest questions would be things like: "Where can I get...." Seems very daunting to get into.

    What I would think would work is, if the knowledgable people on vivariums around here want such a board, then would they be willing to help answer questions in said board? Help out the newbies to encourage people to get into it? If not, and things go sour after a few months, then it can be said that the idea was tried and found not to generate enough interest. That way, it would be all the members responsibility for keeping it active, and then we would see just how many members are making use of it.

    Just my two cents.

    Edit: Posted this while Kelly's comment was being posted. I certainly must voice that I do not see where anyone has 'failed'. In fact, I joined the forums and became a member thanks to the last show. And Adam, you sold me my first reptile. And your vivarium display was a wonderful inspiration to do my research. I would happily support further education on the subject. However, I must agree that it won't happen overnight and would benefit from further planning and encouragement. I don't think anyone here is opposed to the suggestion, nor the idea. It's more the way it's being approached that seems to be ruffling feathers, which seems counterproductive. Seems odd to ask for a sub-forum, then proceed to talk about how the society and it's members are failing at their tasks. Everyone has their own focus. If it feels like someones focus isn't being properly represented, I'm sure that other members would support furthering that cause when approached.
    Last edited by Vasiliki; 11-22-2011 at 11:54 AM.
    - Danielle
    "Snakes are just tails with faces."
    Lots of geckos,lots of snakes, lots of cats,a bunny thrown in there for good measureand a dog

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Can we have a subsection on plants?

    Agreed Kelly ...
    Alexanderyana Aka Ellie
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  5. #35
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    Default Re: Can we have a subsection on plants?

    First, I'd like to say I support the idea of a planted vivaria subsection. I sympathize with the frustration from the lack of interest in this area of our hobby and think maybe Adam may be onto a valid idea that with some dedication it is something that may start being promoted. Whereas some of the suggestions that other forums such as with the orchid club might seem formidable, let's be honest, such forums would not deal with the unique challenges of making a thriving habitat for both plants AND animals (I don't know how many plants I've tried that thrived on their own but got completely destroyed just by minor trampling of a newt or something similar) or for those with a more deeper drive to geographically match plant with animal.

    Second, I also agree with Ian on that the stance you've taken on this issue isn't exactly what one would call productive or mature. I'm not trying to patronise you, Adam, but do you realise how akin to the notorious "child who threatens to hold his breath" your post was? I realise this has become something of a fashion here on ERAS lately, with several people posting a disgruntled "I'm out", and while I don't really know what reaction these people are going for, in every case it has strong overtures of petulance.

    Third, I think both sides on this particular issue were blunt and question if they reflect the reality. I see many problems arise between people who think an issue is "just that easy" and others that think "it's just too hard" without even trying to actually address the issue realistically. Yes, Adam, it does seem quite simple to have another forum section of Planted Vivaria. Is it enough to have just simply "Planted vivaria", or do we perceive to have a need for more discreet subsections nestled within such as "tropical moist", "aquatic", "temperate moist", "hot desert", "palludrium", etc...but to reject this as "too hard" without discussion seems trite. I'll be the first to stand up and say without understanding the logistics, saying "it's just that easy" demonstrates an immense ignorance to the actual problem. I don't claim to understand webdesign or forum architecture in the slightest, but I don't doubt in the least that creating new subsections is probably a lot harder than just opening up some forum master menu and clicking another tab. These are issues that should be put to discussion before being rejected by either side.

    Adam, my suggestion to you is to not give up just yet, but adopt a more democratic interaction method. As Ian stated, you could bring it to an ERAS meeting, or you could circulate a petition. But both sides need to be open to a discussion, and be prepared to take on responsibility yourself. Anyone can go about saying "I want you to do this" and get frustrated when they don't get their way, but it doesn't show much depth. Are you prepared to do more for your goal such as helping with the forum architecture? Doing the tedious crap to make your subsection a reality?

    @Alexanderyana, it's not this forum. In my experience, it's all forums. There appears to be a very common software package for these forums (not just herpetocultural) and I've found the search engine in all of them is awful. Unless you know how to write the code for a better search engine, I'm afraid it's a gremlin we have to work with.
    Last edited by Herpetologic; 11-22-2011 at 11:48 AM. Reason: spelling

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Can we have a subsection on plants?

    Here is a thought for discussion and a vote at the January meeting.

    If we have a section already for enclosure discussion, and it is not a high traffic discussion group, and we have a group of people who are so passionate for planted live Vivs.

    Why not rename the enclosure discussion to enclosures and plants, or "Glass and Greens" with a description saying the discussion is for all types of enclosures and plants and planting that go in.

    This would serve 2 needs in one discussion, and probably increase the traffic to the discussion. It would also give those of us who are passionate about building living enviroments for our living friends to spend the rest of thier lives in, a place to focus our discussions.

    Looks like a win, win situation to me.

    Just a thought. :-)

    I would also like to add this.

    When I first started in the forums I had a similar yet less friendly discussion about a live planted Viv and the animal I was keeping in it. Frog o eyes I do hope you have forgiven me and sorry however I am passionate about what I do.

    Except for a couple of key people, who I have since found out also have a huge passion for live Vivaria, it seemed no one on this site wanted to embrace live vivs. In the year I have been a forum member I have seen the interests rise, some of the myths get debunked, and in the last couple of months have had some out of the blue PM's reagarding live Vivaria. So the fact is people are starting to take pride in displaying their animals in nice enclosures, and interest in live plants is following.

    So Adam, get some high powered batteries and keep shining your light, perservere, know that I and I am sure others will back you at the January meeting and all will settle into a happy middle ground.

    Is there a process or procedure to ensure that a topic is discussed at a meeting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimm View Post
    The reality is that there just isnt enough interest in vivaria/plants in this entire frozen tundra of a country. People like things that are easy to aquire, and easy to take care of. Both do not apply to plants/vivs. Im all for adding a plant section, but its hard enough getting people interested in the enclosure side of things that is here already. Its the "collector" and "lets make money" mentality that keeps things simple and easy in the reptile hobby. When people start to take pride in displaying their animals in nice enclosures, then interest in live plants will follow.
    Walker. Lord grant me the strength to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and forgiveness when I finally snap. 0.1.0 Basilisk, 0.1.0 Green Iguana, 1.0.0 Chahua Gecko 0.1.0 Coastal Carpet Python Thanks to the ERAS adoption program for her.

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Can we have a subsection on plants?

    @Kelley. Very good points and well put. I would like to add that I did 1 show with the stone hides and although it wasn't great, the interest that first show got me, I am only sorry that I lost supply of product and my health and could not attend the next show I think I would have done well. That is the nature of these shows, debut years or shows are usually crappy. So again shine your light and perservere.
    Last edited by lukelightwalker; 11-22-2011 at 12:08 PM.
    Walker. Lord grant me the strength to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and forgiveness when I finally snap. 0.1.0 Basilisk, 0.1.0 Green Iguana, 1.0.0 Chahua Gecko 0.1.0 Coastal Carpet Python Thanks to the ERAS adoption program for her.

  8. #38
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    Default Re: Can we have a subsection on plants?

    @ Herpetologic Also good points and well said.
    Walker. Lord grant me the strength to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and forgiveness when I finally snap. 0.1.0 Basilisk, 0.1.0 Green Iguana, 1.0.0 Chahua Gecko 0.1.0 Coastal Carpet Python Thanks to the ERAS adoption program for her.

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Can we have a subsection on plants?

    If you wanna single me out fine but dont put words in my mouth.

    I stand on the opposite side of your idea. The fact that if you didn't get your way you were leaving and then posted another thread announcing the fact to me is a cry for attention. Well you got it. Not the best way to do it IMO.

    This is going to goto the meeting and you know what's going to happen ? It's going to go for a vote and 90% of the hands in the room will be raised why because no one wants to offend anyone and the motion will be passed.

    It's an easy enough thing todo to add the section the question is is it really needed and I feel that it's not.

    I may be a"Rubbermaid lover" but that's out of convienince for the 11 snakes I have and the room I have to put them. Oh don't get me wrong but I have planted Viv's for my crested geckos and my frog. The reality is space and what's best for my pets outweighs the want to have custom Viv's for all of them.

    Oh and where did I learn about the plants ... Google, our enclosure section and the aforementioned websit vivariumforums ( thanks Grimm )
    My Name is Bubba, And I am addicted to reptiles ...

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Can we have a subsection on plants?

    I was just getting upset, because I was expecting a "Bring the idea to the meeting, and lets talk about it", not the response I did get, at least last night.

    "This last show was a huge let down regarding interest in diversity, with no proposed ways of improving it" was more about my frustration with the discarding of my proposed idea of improving it since the show. It wasn't a comment on anyone's contributions, especially Kelley's before and during the show.

    It's not a cry for attention, it's not me holding my breath, and it's not a take my ball home attitude. It actually has nothing to do with me not getting my way, it has to do with RELEVANCE to my hobby.
    Address the message, not how it's presented, especially from me, when I'm upset. Those of you that know me, should understand that.

    This forum isn't very relevant to me anymore, and those of us that are into vivaria.
    I'm just noticing that a lot of our hobbyists that are into vivaria, are active on nonlocal forums, but not here, they don't vend, and realized why, and I'm reluctantly falling in with them. By announcing that I'm leaving, I'm just helping people understand why this has happened previously, and why it continues to happen. Don't read more into it than that.
    Last edited by lordoftheswarms; 11-22-2011 at 12:57 PM.
    Adam Foster 780-757-8538 Orchids, vivaria, and a few other things
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