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AcidRayne
07-06-2008, 04:53 PM
just tossing this out there but does anyone know where to get any praying mantis's? Im just looking for a N. american common green or brown.

FrogO_Oeyes
07-06-2008, 05:19 PM
Hm. "Native" species are generally not available. I believe that the BC grassland species is protected , but otherwise, all available species are exotic. A couple of those are introduced in eastern Canada, but non-native species are basically illegal to possess in Canada. Best bet would be to check on the protection of BC and Ontario species and see if you can find someone to provide them. Since [I]Tenodera aridifolia [off the top of my head] is native in Canada, import permits from the USA should be possible, even if BC populations are protected.

Michael
07-06-2008, 05:23 PM
It might be kinda hard seeing as they are illegal to own in Canada. Even so, i have seen them in a pet store before, so they are not impossible to get your hands on, just know that they are illegal before you try to get any. I do know that there are, i believe, 3 species of mantids found in Canada, one native species and 2 introduced species, but i don't know the laws about keeping these, maybe someone else does.

EDIT: looks like Frog beat me to it!

AcidRayne
07-06-2008, 08:55 PM
lol i didn't know that i used to catch them as a kid in toronto. but thanks for the info, I will look more into that.

Northernmom
07-07-2008, 08:28 AM
I'm going to have to disagree with the statment that they are illegal in Canada. There are some species that have been approved for sale by greenhouses in Canada for natural pest control. You can buy egg capsules from those greenhouses and hatch them out yourself. I'll see if I can locate the name of the one I was going to use and PM you with it.
Deborah

Kioka
07-07-2008, 08:31 AM
I'm going to have to disagree with the statment that they are illegal in Canada. There are some species that have been approved for sale by greenhouses in Canada for natural pest control. You can buy egg capsules from those greenhouses and hatch them out yourself. I'll see if I can locate the name of the one I was going to use and PM you with it.
Deborah

Most people are not aware of the CFIA's policy. Most people think that invertebrates fall under Fish & Wildlife or the provincial government, but Fish & Wildlife and the government are generally worried about vertebrates; hence why some provinces like in the Maritimes, they think it is their rights to publicly promote illegal invertebrates since they don't believe that the federal laws apply to them. No excuse really. In fact, if you ask the greenhouses and stores that sell them, they are not even aware that there are restrictions on ANY invertebrates; ignorance is bliss after all. The reason why mantids and assassin bugs (the most popular of the banned predatory invertebrates) are banned because of their potential to threaten the bee industry.

As far as finding mantid.... it is not impossible to find. A lot of American companies carry them in Canada.

FrogO_Oeyes
07-07-2008, 09:45 AM
I found some interesting, but partly wrong, information from some BC authorities [note that this newsletter is nearly 10 years old]:
http://www.llbc.leg.bc.ca/public/PubDocs/bcdocs/330232/cpn202.htm

Partly wrong, because the plant protection act clearly spells out the restrictions on mantids. First, they have a list of things which do not require a CFIA import permit. Under Plant Protection laws, no import also means no possession. There are no mantids on that list, so there are none which may be imported without permit:
http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/plaveg/oper/orglste.shtml

There are differing degrees of restriction. Some things may be imported freely from the USA but not from anywhere else, some may be imported from the USA only with a permit, some may not be imported from anywhere, and some may only be imported by specifically licensed facilities. The only legal non-native mantids I can find are for licensed facilities only. The full list of licensed facilities is here:
http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/plaveg/internat/listbe.shtml

The full list on non-lepidoptera allowed [I]only for those facilities is here:
http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/plaveg/internat/listce.shtml

Those facilities may import and keep the following mantids:
Deroplatys dessicata (MANTIDAE)
Deroplatys lobata (MANTIDAE)
Hierodula membranaceus (MANTIDAE)
Hierodula stalli (MANTIDAE)
Hymenopus coronatus (MANTIDAE)
Paratoxodera spp. (MANTIDAE)
Polyspilota spp. (MANTIDAE)
Tenodera aridifolia (MANTIDAE)


The following phasmids [stick insects]:
Achrioptera madagascariensis (PHASMATIDAE)
Acrophylla wuelfingi (PHASMATIDAE)
Anchiale spp. (PHASMATIDAE)
Anisomorpha buprestoides (PSEUDOPHASMATIDAE)
Baculum extradentatum (PHASMATIDAE)
Diapheromera arizonensis (PHASMATIDAE)
Diapheromera femorata (PHASMATIDAE)
Eurycantha calcarata (PHASMATIDAE)
Eurycantha horrida (PHASMATIDAE)
Eurycnema herculeana (PHASMATIDAE)
Extatosoma tiaratum (PHASMATIDAE)
Heteropteryx dilatata (PHASMATIDAE)
Oreiphoetes spp. (PHASMATIDAE)
Pharnacia acanthopus (PHASMATIDAE)
Pharnacia serratipes (PHASMATIDAE)
Sipyloidea sipylus (PHASMATIDAE)

The following roaches:
Blaberus spp. (BLABERIDAE)
Gromphadorhina portentosa (BLABERIDAE)
Macropanesthia rhinoceros (BLABERIDAE)

Among the mantids, I believe four species occur wild in Canada.
The European mantis, Mantis religiosa, is not permitted, even for licensed facilities.
The Chinese mantis, Tenodera aridifolia sinensis, is permitted only for licensed facilities.
The Carolina mantis, Stagmomantis carolina, is not permitted, even for licensed facilities.
The grassland mantis, Litoneutria minor, is an unregulated native species.

I see no indication that any exotic species may legally be sold to schools or garden centers, or released as pest control agents, not withstanding the fact that this happens, nor the fact that some are already introduced. The fact that wild populations exist only makes it harder to control, which is further evidence of exactly WHY the laws are as they are: we don't need any more introduced species.

Northernmom
07-07-2008, 09:57 AM
I was unable to loacte the artical I was reading on the government approval of some species for sale by greenhouses. I know it was an artical from BC so it could be that provencially they had approved the sale of species already natural too or already infesting BC. Since I can`t locate the artical I concede the point. :)
I did notice thought that not ALL the locations list by CFIA as having permits to display exotic insects are non commercial or zoological. In fact in SK where I am located the only approved facility is a greenhouse. Makes you wonder how hard it is to get such a permit.

Cody
07-07-2008, 09:57 AM
Well when I worked at an Elementary school, the teachers always ordered butterflies from http://boreal.com/ and they sold mantids aswell as many other goodies.

Here is the link to some Tenodera aridifolia sinensis
http://boreal.com/ig0021506/p/IG0021506/

FrogO_Oeyes
07-07-2008, 11:20 AM
I posted an article above, from BC. It is 10 years old. I don't know if it was accurate in 1998, but it is not accurate now with regard to mantids. The article was published in and by BC environment, but it referred to federal law and not to anything particular to BC.

I looked up Wilson's Greenhouse, and it would appear that they are a legitimate facility, as their website indicates that they are a "destination", with golf course, go kart track, event hosting, etc. In short, they are a display facility as well as a plent vendor. Being granted a permit for invertebrate display would probably entail making it clear that they can't sell or give away said inverts. Similarly, the Calgary Zoo sells plants and seeds, but it doesn't sell butterflies. The same probably applies to most of the facilities listed. They all sell things, but they are all permitted to display [and only display] invertebrates.

Yes, it is possible to order mantids and butterflies in Canada. That is probably actually illegal. It is likely happening one of two ways:
Bio supply houses are obtaining eggs or pupae from populations occuring in the wild in Canada. Since they don't go through the importation process, either no-one notices it happening, or they notice and choose not to enforce until a complaint or problem arises. As it stands, if Chinese mantids are introduced in Ontario at least since my mom was a kid, and they haven't spread west, then a bio supply company or greenhouse in Ontario isn't likely to cause any harm. No point in enforcing in this case because it won't actually change anything.

The other possibility is that bio supply companies are importing without being noticed. Either they are granted permits because of the educational and scientific nature of their business, or they are coming in unpermitted with no-one checking or enforcing.

Either way, the sale does not appear to be legal.

nox invictus profundum
07-07-2008, 05:15 PM
Yes, much like millipedes.... The genie has already left the bottle.... I've been offered mantids several times but I dont do hexapods......

FrogO_Oeyes
07-07-2008, 07:48 PM
Not quite the same. I don't know of any millipedes being sold which are both exotic and established in the Canadian wild. I've kept and sold Harpaphe haydeniana, but those are an indiginous species. It would be quite easy for authorities to crack down on diplopods if they so wished, because virtually all of them are imports.